The verdict is in. These five lawyers share a love of practicing in Utah County and an admiration for their clients and other attorneys in the valley. They also agree on the real reason they practice law — to help others succeed. Turn the next few pages to find out how to avoid lawsuits, why you should be honest with your attorney and how the mention of “fee structure” brought laughter to this room of prestigious counselors. One more thing — you’re getting a good deal on your legal work in Utah County. Believe it!

Jeanette Bennett, BusinessQ: How will yesterday’s election affect the legal industry?

Randall Bateman, Bateman IP Law: In the overall legal industry, there will be a boom. A more liberal administration tends to promote more regulation, and when that happens people need to hire more lawyers.

Bill Fillmore, Fillmore Spencer: Many of Senator Obama’s supporters were trial lawyers, and they might find things a little more friendly from a federal perspective. But, really, it’s hard to say.

Barbara Melendez, Kirton & McConkie: I still have a question mark up in terms of international trade and immigration — and certainly in terms of business- and employment-related questions. While much has been said about immigration, little has been done, and I wonder how much will actually be done. It will be interesting to see what happens in those first 100 days. I’m going to hold my thoughts until our next meeting.

Fillmore, Fillmore Spencer: I agree with Barbara. After all is said and done, much more is said than done.

Bennett, BusinessQ: How is the legal environment unique in Utah County?

Fillmore, Fillmore Spencer: You mean besides the fee structure? (laughter) I’m always amazed and chagrined at dealing with lawyers half my age on the East and West Coast who are charging twice as much as I am for the same services. In general, Utah County fees are significantly less — even less than Salt Lake. I also see a higher level of integrity and collegiality among lawyers here than in other places.

Melendez, Kirton & McConkie: I spend the majority of my time in Utah County and part of it in Salt Lake. Nothing against my Salt Lake colleagues, but there is a strong sense of camaraderie here in Utah Valley. I hadn’t seen Chris for a couple of years until today, and it’s wonderful to see each other again. In addition, I have to ditto what Bill said about fees. I hear what some of my clients are paying their Los Angeles or Chicago attorneys and I think, “Well, I can do it for less.” But I almost don’t want to! (laughter) The fee structure here is so dramatically different even from other places in the Intermountain West.

Chris Dexter, Dexter & Dexter: We live in a place with 600 attorneys and a strong growth dynamic. Many people leave Utah County to develop a practice in other areas of the country, and then their kids go to BYU and marry local people and the whole family ends up coming back. Relationships with fellow attorneys here emphasize civility. I may have a case with Steve in three months and have the upper hand, then he’ll have the upper hand on another case in six or eight months. We have repeated interaction with each other, and this creates the collegiality.

Bateman, Bateman IP Law: Utah County is coming of age. Law firms here are no longer the “little Utah Valley firms.” People don’t have to go to Salt Lake for a good attorney. But it’s also a small enough bar that lawyers are still good to each other. If I have a client who needs something I can’t offer, I say, “We don’t specialize in that, but I can refer you to an attorney who does.” When I deal with people on the coast, it’s a “gotcha” way of doing business. Here, I know fully well that if I pull a fast one on someone, it will come back to haunt me in another case. In the New York market, I’d never see him again. But in Utah Valley, I better treat Bill right because I may need a four-week extension on a motion someday. If I’ve treated him fairly in the past, I’ll get it. If not, I can forget about it.
Bennett, BusinessQ: What are the advantages to seeking legal counsel here in Utah County instead of going to Salt Lake City?

Fillmore, Fillmore Spencer: Our firm has now grown to almost 20 lawyers, and the virtue of that is we are able to meet nearly every legal need for our Utah County clients. We will refer clients to Salt Lake or Los Angeles whenever there’s a special need. You can’t be all things to all people, so we build relationships with firms outside the state so we can tap that kind of expertise.

Stephen Quesenberry, Hill, Johnson & Schmutz: You should hire the best lawyers whether they’re in Salt Lake or somewhere else. We lawyers should be free to refer our clients to people who have more expertise. I don’t think people today hire firms as much as they hire individuals.

Dexter, Dexter & Dexter: The days of the general practitioner are gone. We have nine attorneys in our firm, and each one focuses on one or two specific areas of law. We can’t do everything, and it’s a big deal to know when you’re in over your head. We are in the business of meeting people’s needs and exceeding their expectations. It’s our job to solve problems. If we can’t do that alone, we do it in a team orientation — not just with other attorneys, but with CPAs as well. We won’t be serving our clients’ interest if we don’t work together. In this valley where relationships mean so much, you need to give and receive repeat referrals in order to succeed.

Quesenberry, Hill, Johnson & Schmutz: Utah Valley is a great place to live and to practice law. There are more skilled people here all the time — and it’s important for us as attorneys to keep up with who is in Utah County. You can’t look back at which attorneys were in practice 10 years ago.

Melendez, Kirton & McConkie: Utah County is a great place to live. We recently put an office in Utah County as a service to our employees and clients. The reality is that we are all attorneys and we are providing a service to our clients. Our firm has 100-plus attorneys, and if we don’t know how to help clients, we refer out to people we have relationships with. That’s how you provide the best legal service — by making sure you are pointing your client in the best direction.

Bennett, BusinessQ: Many of our readers have recently started businesses. What legal services do they need in the early phases of their venture?

Fillmore, Fillmore Spencer: They need to focus on formational mistake avoidance. We live in a world where you can pick up various legal forms on the Internet, and that’s risky business. Quite often, saving a penny now can cost a dollar later because you have to correct mistakes. There are more and more choices that have to be made. It’s a lot more intricate than the Internet would lead you to believe. Don’t be penny-wise and pound-foolish. Lawyers can give you advice on formation and protecting intellectual property. Sometimes new technology companies are ignorant and careless with their IP.

Dexter, Dexter & Dexter: Early involvement is really important. So many problems could be solved or even avoided if things were done correctly from the beginning. We had a client who came to us after the fact and ended up with a $2 million problem that could have been solved for $800 or $900 when it started. An attorney can help from the very beginning and continue to advise over time. They can look out for you. It pays off in the long run to have someone there to provide foresight. Early involvement is key.

Bennett, BusinessQ: Let’s move on to mid-sized businesses. What legal needs do they typically have?

Bateman, Bateman IP Law: Every company ought to have a “go-to” attorney. If a company gets in with a good attorney, he or she will help them make connections. Half the time, I don’t end up doing the work a client calls me for. They ask me who they should talk to, and I give them two or three names. It’s a way of providing quality legal work. It gives you connections to the best people in town. It gives businesses an access point — if you just pull out the phone book, you don’t know what you are getting. When you’re hiring an attorney, you want to get someone you have confidence in. Let that attorney line you up with people who can meet your various needs. With a specialty firm like ours, we’re constantly referring out. We keep on top of what’s new and who the quality people are in a given field. We can say, “Here are three or four people you can try.”

Fillmore, Fillmore Spencer: Rand makes a great point. Find that go-to lawyer that you know and trust. We find people who have taken business law advice from the divorce lawyer in their Elder’s Quorum. Other people just go through the Yellow Pages and take a shot in the dark. It’s valuable to find that lawyer that you know and trust.

Bateman, Bateman IP Law: If your attorney can do everything you send to him and he doesn’t occasionally say, “I can’t do that. Let me pass you off to so and so,” you probably aren’t getting good legal advice unless you have a very narrow focus. No attorney is good enough to be on top of all the areas of law today. We have subspecialties within our specialties.

Fillmore, Fillmore Spencer: For example, our firm wanted to hire Barbara a few years ago when she was seduced by Kirton & McConkie to go to Salt Lake City —

Melendez, Kirton & McConkie: I wouldn’t say “seduced” and Kirton & McConkie in the same sentence. (laughter)

Fillmore, Fillmore Spencer: Good point. We have one area we routinely refer to Barbara or somebody else. It’s an area where you practice at your peril.

Melendez, Kirton & McConkie: Even in-house general counsel knows they need to seek outside counsel. One of the unique things about Utah County is that you have a lot of companies transitioning from a small business to a medium-sized one. What happens during that transition is important. Are we the kind of attorneys who tell clients about recent legislation and how that can impact them? We need to tell them if they need to go through a training process. When companies are becoming larger, they may miss out on some of the nuances or changes in the law that will eventually stop them from moving from a medium company to a large one.

Fillmore, Fillmore Spencer: As businesses grow, little issues become more and more important. As companies become more sophisticated, employment issues become more important. Statues that don’t come into play until you have 20 or 50 employees suddenly apply. A variety of growth issues dictate some debt and equity financing as you grow.

Bennett, BusinessQ: What can clients expect concerning charges for an e-mail or a phone call from an attorney?

Dexter, Dexter & Dexter: Clients don’t want you to charge them for an e-mail you sent with a “heads up” on a change or an emerging issue. Nothing frustrates a client more than to have a relationship where the attorney becomes the enemy because of those ticky-tack fees. You don’t help yourself get long-term success or repeat and referral business if you don’t cultivate and grow that relationship of trust with the client. If you don’t respect your clients, they’re not going to respect you.

Quesenberry, Hill, Johnson & Schmutz: When I started, you typed letters to your clients on a typewriter. Now I can see an article in a legal journal, attach it to an e-mail and send it to a client with a message that says, “Look at this.” It takes 10 seconds. You can communicate a lot easier now, and clients shouldn’t be billed for it. That’s a fundamental way our practice has changed in this day and age. E-mail has changed everything.

Dexter, Dexter & Dexter: There has been a movement toward more of a flat-fee structure. It’s hard for people to sign a blank check for an unknown number of hours at $200 an hour. We need to communicate clearly a good fee agreement in which both parties are informed. We live in trying economic times. People are and will be less financially secure than they have been historically. Unless you’re a scooter salesman in San Diego, your industry will probably have to make some adjustments. I don’t think attorneys are immune to that. We have to pay attention to the market, and the most important thing we can do is communicate clearly with our clients.

Quesenberry, Hill, Johnson & Schmutz: We also need to make clients aware that there are options for lowering costs. Some people say to their lawyer, “You just do everything, report to me periodically and send me a bill.” Other people want to be really involved and ask what they can do to lower their bill. Clients can be involved in document production and in reviewing things. They can save money if they are aware of their options and if attorneys are willing to work with them.

Bateman, Bateman IP Law: One of the keys to understand as far as billing is concerned is that “a stitch in time saves nine.” About 80 percent of litigation is preventable. Litigation for more than $1 million could have been avoided if someone had spent $1,000 on an attorney at the beginning. For example, if you think you have important technology, you need to sit down with an attorney and get it taken care of up front. One big fault of clients in Utah as a whole is that they are overly worried about spending money on legal fees. That just makes them spend much more on legal fees in the end. If you let a lawyer look at a problem on the front end, it will cost about $500. If you let it get worse, you can drop $20,000 on a case before you blink. You just spent 40 times as much by not addressing it head-on. It’s like maintenance on a car. If you don’t take care of little things as they happen, you’ll end up paying to replace the whole engine.

Fillmore, Fillmore Spencer: The saddest thing a lawyer can hear is, “I just signed this contract. Tell me what it means. Did I do the right thing?” Very bright people can read a legal contract, but it means different things to lawyers or judges. There are implications and important meanings behind words. Even though you are brilliant and may even hold a Ph.D., you are still just reacting to the written word. It’s hard to recognize what’s not there. There are paragraphs your lawyer would put in for your protection.
Bateman, Bateman IP Law: Clients can get so caught up in a great new venture that they don’t think, “What happens if a year from now, the product isn’t selling? What happens if a year from now the other party finds another source for the product?” If the contract doesn’t mention they’re going to buy all of the product from you, you need to get it in there. Attorneys know what questions to ask. You get knowledge through experience, and lawyers generally have been through similar things with other clients. They can tell you about the hazards that will come up. It prevents both parties from becoming dissatisfied and spending more money on lawsuits in the long run.

Quesenberry, Hill, Johnson & Schmutz: Even with preparation, lawsuits still arise, and that is a crucial time. But many people just hire someone they know who is a divorce attorney when what they really need is a real estate attorney. People don’t shop around, and the divorce attorney can’t handle complicated real estate litigation. Why don’t people take more time to see what’s out there and see what other attorneys say? I’ve been involved in cases where the opposing attorney clearly doesn’t know what he’s doing. It causes money to be wasted. Cases that could settle for a small amount go on and on with fees. People should shop around, get second opinions, talk to other attorneys and find out which lawyers are good in particular areas. People tend to just go to the same person no matter what, and there’s usually a big bill as a result.

Melendez, Kirton & McConkie: It’s like going to a family doctor for a quadruple bypass. The results could be disastrous. We hear lots of names used for attorneys — lawyers, sharks — but an attorney is essentially a counselor. Create those relationships of understanding — it’s much easier to receive counsel up front than in the middle of a litigation issue. Does litigation occur? Sure. But can much be avoided? Absolutely.

Bateman, Bateman IP Law: To continue with your analogy, sometimes it’s like going to the neurosurgeon for an ingrown toenail. There are times when you need a specialist, but there are also times you’re paying a high rate for something you don’t need. If it’s a pretty simple matter, you don’t need the top guy at the biggest firm.

Quesenberry, Hill, Johnson & Schmutz: I tell people to do those things themselves in small claims court.

Bateman, Bateman IP Law: A good attorney should give that kind of advice.

Bennett, BusinessQ: In turbulent times, many companies are downsizing. How can businesses be legally prepared if they need to let people go?

Fillmore, Fillmore Spencer: That’s an excellent question right now. I do mostly employment law, and already we can see the wave coming. More companies are going to be engaging in Reductions in Force (RIF). We sent a 10-page summary to our corporate clients on how to minimize problems — advice on how to do it right if they’re facing a RIF. You are going to have problems, but it’s all about how to minimize pain. It’s a longer discussion than we have time for today, but there are basic principles to follow. Avoid discrimination — be careful about age, race, sex and so on. Be really good with your communication, both to those who are let go and those who stay. The psychology even among those who are left on board can sometimes be really fragile.

Bateman, Bateman IP Law: Now is a good time to make sure your ducks are in a row. Any issue that could involve a dispute over ownership needs to be resolved before you notify an employee that his job is over. Make sure you’re providing documentation. Those are things you need to consider as you make that transition from a small company to a mid-sized one. In a really small company, all the information is in the hands of one or two people. As you grow into a mid-sized company, that needs to change. You probably have an engineering staff — do you have agreements that cover intellectual property and state who owns copyrighted material? Make it clear to your employees that what they have done for the company isn’t theirs to take. It’s a lot easier to deal with those issues before announcing layoffs.

Melendez, Kirton & McConkie: While we are seeing turns and difficult times, difficult times only lead to better times. Companies need to prepare in that direction as well. Maybe these down times are the best times to filter out the fat and decide what works best for your company and train the staff that you have. That way, when things start changing again, you’re prepared.

Bennett, BusinessQ: What do you wish business owners understood better about your perspective as lawyers?

Fillmore, Fillmore Spencer: First, most lawyers are good people, particularly in this valley. Secondly, we are in an age of specialization. When you come to us, you’re paying for good legal advice, and it’s money well spent. It can save a lot of trouble in the future. We have young entrepreneurs coming into our office all the time with two-, three- and even five-person partnerships, and they often have a “three musketeers” mentality. “All for one and one for all.” They think everything’s going to be great. What they don’t understand is that, over time, the ground shifts, even among the best of friends and partnerships. Someone decides to leave for greener pastures — what happens to his stock? Someone is pulling the load disproportionately and the others are riding on their coattails — what do you do then? You have to anticipate problems that might arise and create flexibility in how to deal with them in reasonable, fair ways. Those early assumptions hardly ever hold. You have to anticipate fairness.

Dexter, Dexter & Dexter: Your attorney can be your best friend because he or she will help you maximize success. You employ us to help you avoid problems.

Bateman, Bateman IP Law: If you have the attitude that an attorney is a necessarily evil — or even is evil — it hampers the relationship. There are a few attorneys who will suck a company dry, but very few. Most attorneys get personal fulfillment out of seeing their clients’ companies grow. I don’t create something I can show my kids — I could show them a document but they wouldn’t find it very interesting (laughter). But when there’s a new invention or medical device, I can tell my kids that I helped patent that. I contributed in a unique way, and it’s almost like I’m part of the business.

Bennett, BusinessQ: How do you develop a relationship with an attorney who cares about your business as much as you do?

Bateman, Bateman IP Law: You’ll know your attorney is looking out for you if the advice they give is sometimes a bit painful. Sometimes my clients come to me and say, “This is such a great deal!” I’ll tell them not to take it, and six months later, they come to me and say, “Now I know why you told me not to do it,” and they trust me more. Honesty is also very important from the attorney’s point of view. I try to lose a client very quickly if I don’t think I can trust the client. I ask my clients to tell me the good, the bad and the ugly about a case. If I can’t trust a client, I will gently direct them to another counselor.

Melendez, Kirton & McConkie: It’s not a clear relationship at that point.

Bateman, Bateman IP Law: The worst thing in the world is to make a representation to the judge fully believing it is true and then watch the opposing side pull out five incriminating e-mails from your client you knew nothing about. In litigation, a judges’ view of personal integrity is an attorney’s only asset. If the judge remembers that Bill’s always played it straight, he’s going to give Bill’s client the benefit of the doubt.

Fillmore, Fillmore Spencer: Great point. Reputation is worth everything, especially in this smaller valley. Rand also said that good lawyers engage in preventative medicine. I agree — if we can keep our clients out of trouble, we’ve saved them time and grief and maybe even saved their business.

Quesenberry, Hill, Johnson & Schmutz: Knowledge is power. I’m amazed at how many people have no idea about the laws that apply to their field. I always encourage my clients to read the newspaper and pay attention to their industry publications. You need to become educated with the laws in your area so you’ll know when you need to go to a lawyer. You’ll know when things are changing. That knowledge is powerful.

Bennett, BusinessQ: What final message do you want to leave with our readers?

Melendez, Kirton & McConkie: Relationships are essential. In this field, your value is based on your reputation. Judges will ask, is this an appeal from an attorney who made up all the facts and altered documents? That’s essential for clients to understand. In our client engagement letter, I have a paragraph that says the professional relationship will end if a client asks me to do something that violates the rules of professional conduct. It’s as simple as that. No success is worth me losing my license.

Bateman, Bateman IP Law: Some clients think they’re doing well if they go get the biggest jerk out there — a guy who’s tough as nails — and he’ll pummel the other side. That almost always backfires because if your attorney is a jerk, the judges know it. The jury and the media also know, so it’s counterproductive. As soon as that attorney’s in the case, everyone’s posture changes.

Dexter, Dexter & Dexter: Those are the types of attorneys who give our profession a bad name. Luckily, they’re mostly in Salt Lake (laughing).

Quesenberry, Hill, Johnson & Schmutz: There are also names that show up in the courtroom that I’m happy about. I think, “This is someone who’s good to work with.” Even if it’s a person I’m constantly against, we can work well together. You can resolve cases, and there’s a high level of trust. Those attorneys should be commended.

Bateman, Bateman IP Law: If I’m working with someone I trust, I can be very candid and together we try to find the best solution. With the “jerk attorney” we mentioned before, you aren’t going to get that. That’s the advantage of having an attorney who’s good at working with other people. It’s OK for them to be aggressive, but they should also be fair and never misrepresent the facts.

Fillmore, Fillmore Spencer: Let me reinforce that point — it’s the “life is short” philosophy. Some lawyers can’t sleep at night if they haven’t engaged in a win-lose conflict, and as a result, they usually end up losing. One of my proudest possessions is a Nez Pierce peace pipe I received as a gift after I settled a major commercial dispute. A man gave it to me, teaching me that I could “smoke the peace pipe” and it would save me a lot of bad times. It reminds me to try to settle things — there are usually win-win solutions. He taught me to bring out the peace pipe before I pull out the tomahawk. You ought to try to settle it first.

Bennett, BusinessQ: No tomahawks here! Thank you for your legal insights today. Case closed!

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